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	<title>Comments on: Cerebrum-stuffer from Shtetl Claus</title>
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	<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881</link>
	<description>The Blog of Scott Aaronson</description>
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		<title>By: rrtucci</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-38169</link>
		<dc:creator>rrtucci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 02:10:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-38169</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think I&#039;m going to black out my blog for a day, in protest, unless Scott posts something in this blog soon.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;m going to black out my blog for a day, in protest, unless Scott posts something in this blog soon.</p>
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		<title>By: 2012 Survey Results &#171; Gödel&#8217;s Lost Letter and P=NP</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-38012</link>
		<dc:creator>2012 Survey Results &#171; Gödel&#8217;s Lost Letter and P=NP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jan 2012 22:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-38012</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] working on AI/robotics/brain science, and this gives me opportunity to note that Scott Aaronson has posted the culmination of his Philosophy and TCS course, including a student project showing the Turing [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] working on AI/robotics/brain science, and this gives me opportunity to note that Scott Aaronson has posted the culmination of his Philosophy and TCS course, including a student project showing the Turing [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jiav</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37937</link>
		<dc:creator>Jiav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 20:42:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37937</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Abel, sorry my answer seems jammed until Scott publish it manually.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abel, sorry my answer seems jammed until Scott publish it manually.</p>
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		<title>By: Abel</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37892</link>
		<dc:creator>Abel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2012 03:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37892</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Jiav: I am leaning towards seeing the slide rule method as a non-brute force case. It would partially depend on how is the sum of the logs of the two inputs performed, though. Also, in the way I look at the slide rule method, the third and final lookup to determine the answer is a reverse lookup in the same table as the first lookup  (although of course, the method can be described equivalently in the way you propose). This makes me not consider the method something I would call brute force.

Thanks for the comments about the neurosciences! As I said I don&#039;t know that much about those, so it&#039;s always fun to learn :) I would be interested if you could give any examples of neurological structures laid in a matrix (I did an online search to try to find those, but it failed, I suspect due to a lack of knowledge of the relevant words in the area).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jiav: I am leaning towards seeing the slide rule method as a non-brute force case. It would partially depend on how is the sum of the logs of the two inputs performed, though. Also, in the way I look at the slide rule method, the third and final lookup to determine the answer is a reverse lookup in the same table as the first lookup  (although of course, the method can be described equivalently in the way you propose). This makes me not consider the method something I would call brute force.</p>
<p>Thanks for the comments about the neurosciences! As I said I don&#8217;t know that much about those, so it&#8217;s always fun to learn <img src='http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  I would be interested if you could give any examples of neurological structures laid in a matrix (I did an online search to try to find those, but it failed, I suspect due to a lack of knowledge of the relevant words in the area).</p>
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		<title>By: Jiav</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37811</link>
		<dc:creator>Jiav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jan 2012 05:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Abel, let&#039;s consider multiplication using the digital equivalent of slide rules. This means to look up within three tables, or within a single table three times, plus a trivial combination. Should I understand you would see this as a brute force case? 

Regarding the neurosciences, I would propose several answers:

If you consider that something must remain fixed so as to be a lookup table, then you&#039;ll hardly find anything in our brains that fits this description. 

If what matters is a structuration laid in a n-dimensional matrix, then many neurological structures are known to be more or less structured this way -it&#039;s a general rule, not an exception. The combination of the activities of these different maps is however unlikely trivial, to say the least.

Finally, one may wish to consider that lookup tables are a special case of a deeper principle: save processing time at the expense of memory space. If this idea belongs to the Platonic heaven, then our brain is its incarnation. ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abel, let&#8217;s consider multiplication using the digital equivalent of slide rules. This means to look up within three tables, or within a single table three times, plus a trivial combination. Should I understand you would see this as a brute force case? </p>
<p>Regarding the neurosciences, I would propose several answers:</p>
<p>If you consider that something must remain fixed so as to be a lookup table, then you&#8217;ll hardly find anything in our brains that fits this description. </p>
<p>If what matters is a structuration laid in a n-dimensional matrix, then many neurological structures are known to be more or less structured this way -it&#8217;s a general rule, not an exception. The combination of the activities of these different maps is however unlikely trivial, to say the least.</p>
<p>Finally, one may wish to consider that lookup tables are a special case of a deeper principle: save processing time at the expense of memory space. If this idea belongs to the Platonic heaven, then our brain is its incarnation. <img src='http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: TonyK</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37791</link>
		<dc:creator>TonyK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2012 23:54:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Am I missing something, or is that interactive proof demo completely useless? The way it&#039;s set up, it doesn&#039;t convince me of anything at all, certainly not that the application has a 3-colouring. Oh right, I just have to press Reveal... Surely there&#039;s a better way to do this?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Am I missing something, or is that interactive proof demo completely useless? The way it&#8217;s set up, it doesn&#8217;t convince me of anything at all, certainly not that the application has a 3-colouring. Oh right, I just have to press Reveal&#8230; Surely there&#8217;s a better way to do this?</p>
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		<title>By: Abel Molina</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37785</link>
		<dc:creator>Abel Molina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2012 21:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37785</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Jiav: Great question! I can give you a partial answer, using as a toy example systems that multiply two numbers m and n.

In the non brute-force case, we could have a system such that when n = 1, no activity is detected other than a copy of m to the output. Otherwise, the part of the system that holds the answer, holds first m, then the answer to 2*m , then the answer to 3*m, and so on, until it finally holds the answer n*m. One could generalize this to other problems in terms of the system holding during its computation answers to partial subproblems which combine to give the final answer in a nontrivial way (I add the last requirement to try to avoid the case where the system could be seen as having different brute force tables whose answers are easily combined, in the multiplication case this could be different brute force tables for different digits of the answer).

In the brute force case, we could be registering activity in a different spatial region of the system for each possible input, and after that a copy of the state of that region of the system to the part of the system holding the final answer. In the multiplication case, this would be even clearer if the system was laid in a 2 dimensional way, and as we varied the m/n input, the region of the system that is activated would move along the x/y axis.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jiav: Great question! I can give you a partial answer, using as a toy example systems that multiply two numbers m and n.</p>
<p>In the non brute-force case, we could have a system such that when n = 1, no activity is detected other than a copy of m to the output. Otherwise, the part of the system that holds the answer, holds first m, then the answer to 2*m , then the answer to 3*m, and so on, until it finally holds the answer n*m. One could generalize this to other problems in terms of the system holding during its computation answers to partial subproblems which combine to give the final answer in a nontrivial way (I add the last requirement to try to avoid the case where the system could be seen as having different brute force tables whose answers are easily combined, in the multiplication case this could be different brute force tables for different digits of the answer).</p>
<p>In the brute force case, we could be registering activity in a different spatial region of the system for each possible input, and after that a copy of the state of that region of the system to the part of the system holding the final answer. In the multiplication case, this would be even clearer if the system was laid in a 2 dimensional way, and as we varied the m/n input, the region of the system that is activated would move along the x/y axis.</p>
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		<title>By: John Sidles</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37780</link>
		<dc:creator>John Sidles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2012 19:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37780</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to agree with (what I take to be) one thrust of Tim Gowers&#039; comments, namely that problematic issues are associated to  &quot;brute force&quot; Turing Machines, even ones that pass the Turing Test.  

One possible path toward formalizing these issues would be to require (as part of the Turing Test) a &lt;a href=&quot;http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.4364&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;witness extraction procedure&lt;/a&gt; that would require of any sentient algorithm the feasible extraction of a witness, with said witness amounting (in essence) to a &lt;i&gt;short&lt;/i&gt; explanation if &quot;How I work&quot;.  

The intuition being, that thereby any &quot;brute force&quot; Turing Machine would be obligated&#160;&#8212; as an required ingredient of sentience&#160;&#8212; to provide (in essence) a &lt;i&gt;short&lt;/i&gt; algorithm for emulating itself&#160;&#8230; whereupon the &quot;brute force&quot; algorithm renders itself nugatory.  

In human terms, the required process of witness extraction would be, very broadly speaking, the TM equivalent of a psychoanalysis&#160;&#8212; which indeed is a quintessentially human activity.

In accord with ordinary human understanding, we would scarcely call an entity that could not concisely rationalize its actions &quot;sentient&quot; in the common sense of the word.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with (what I take to be) one thrust of Tim Gowers&#8217; comments, namely that problematic issues are associated to  &#8220;brute force&#8221; Turing Machines, even ones that pass the Turing Test.  </p>
<p>One possible path toward formalizing these issues would be to require (as part of the Turing Test) a <a href="http://arxiv.org/abs/1101.4364" rel="nofollow">witness extraction procedure</a> that would require of any sentient algorithm the feasible extraction of a witness, with said witness amounting (in essence) to a <i>short</i> explanation if &#8220;How I work&#8221;.  </p>
<p>The intuition being, that thereby any &#8220;brute force&#8221; Turing Machine would be obligated&nbsp;&mdash; as an required ingredient of sentience&nbsp;&mdash; to provide (in essence) a <i>short</i> algorithm for emulating itself&nbsp;&hellip; whereupon the &#8220;brute force&#8221; algorithm renders itself nugatory.  </p>
<p>In human terms, the required process of witness extraction would be, very broadly speaking, the TM equivalent of a psychoanalysis&nbsp;&mdash; which indeed is a quintessentially human activity.</p>
<p>In accord with ordinary human understanding, we would scarcely call an entity that could not concisely rationalize its actions &#8220;sentient&#8221; in the common sense of the word.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37777</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2012 18:34:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37777</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I loved your Paper on the possible applications of computational complexity theory to questions in philosophy so i know going to love this!! thanks for putting this up for us all to enjoy Scott! : )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I loved your Paper on the possible applications of computational complexity theory to questions in philosophy so i know going to love this!! thanks for putting this up for us all to enjoy Scott! : )</p>
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		<title>By: Jiav</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37755</link>
		<dc:creator>Jiav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Jan 2012 03:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=881#comment-37755</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Abel, what feature(s) should let us say that some system does or does not work similar to a brute force table?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abel, what feature(s) should let us say that some system does or does not work similar to a brute force table?</p>
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