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	<title>Comments on: A causality post, for no particular reason</title>
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	<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156</link>
	<description>The Blog of Scott Aaronson</description>
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		<title>By: James</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-69538</link>
		<dc:creator>James</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Apr 2013 11:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-69538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If the sole goal of the Armchairians is to observe the world around them, then they will surely report on the cyclical nature of many events. Some examples would be the housing/proerty cycle or stock market cycle. Both exhibit classic human traits of greed, as in a rapidly increasing stock market or of property prices to unsustainable levels coupled with so called experts telling everyone it is different this time. This is followed by a rapid decline in stock or property prices excellerated by fear.
The Armchairians would have noted this recurring cycle of events and our apparent inability to learn from history.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the sole goal of the Armchairians is to observe the world around them, then they will surely report on the cyclical nature of many events. Some examples would be the housing/proerty cycle or stock market cycle. Both exhibit classic human traits of greed, as in a rapidly increasing stock market or of property prices to unsustainable levels coupled with so called experts telling everyone it is different this time. This is followed by a rapid decline in stock or property prices excellerated by fear.<br />
The Armchairians would have noted this recurring cycle of events and our apparent inability to learn from history.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Knight</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55529</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Knight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 22:44:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55529</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Michael Vassar: are you disputing to my claim about Pearl? In any event, what do you mean by &quot;inspired&quot; and what leads you this belief? 

Pearl certainly was an engineer who studied decision theory, so he was even more contaminated by causal thinking than most humans. I probably should not have said Pearl claimed to &lt;em&gt;be&lt;/em&gt; an armchairian, just that he claimed to have at some point disbelieved in causality and derived a belief in causality from non-causality (a claim that I misunderstood, see end). If he developed bayes nets without seeking causality, it is easy to imagine armchairians doing the same thing. 

In the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ece.tamu.edu/~bjyoon/ecen689-604-fall10/Pearl_1982.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1982 paper about tree bayes nets&lt;/a&gt;, Pearl does not mention causality. In &lt;a href=&quot;http://ijcai.org/Past%20Proceedings/IJCAI-85-VOL1/PDF/108.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1984 or 1985&lt;/a&gt;, he says &quot;This paper takes the position that human obsession with causation is computationally motivated. Causal models are only attractive because they provide effective data-structures for representing empirical knowledge...&quot; which seems to be the assertion that armchairians would introduce such models. I don&#039;t put much stake in an argument from authority: what does he know of armchairians? If he developed the 1982 paper with no thought of causality, I think that is strong evidence. But the lack of mention of causality in the paper is only weak evidence of his thoughts.

In the &lt;a href=&quot;http://ftp.cs.ucla.edu/tech-report/198_-reports/850017.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;1985 paper of full-fledged DAG bayes nets&lt;/a&gt;, he is more enthusiastic about causality, but is still nervous about its reality.

Actually, I misremembered the passage that lead me to describe past-Pearl as an armchairian. He does not claim to have ever disbelieved in causality or avoided talking about it (though he does seem to avoid it in the 1982 paper). From the preface of Causality, the passage is: &quot;Ten years ago [in 1988] I was working in the empiricist position...[I held] that] causality simply provides useful ways of abbreviating and organizing intricate patterns of probabilistic relationships...I now take causal relationships to be the fundamental building blocks...&quot; He is talking about a later transition. If he could make that transition, maybe armchairians could, but it is pretty weak evidence. But I don&#039;t think the armchairians need to make that transition to count for Scott&#039;s purposes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Vassar: are you disputing to my claim about Pearl? In any event, what do you mean by &#8220;inspired&#8221; and what leads you this belief? </p>
<p>Pearl certainly was an engineer who studied decision theory, so he was even more contaminated by causal thinking than most humans. I probably should not have said Pearl claimed to <em>be</em> an armchairian, just that he claimed to have at some point disbelieved in causality and derived a belief in causality from non-causality (a claim that I misunderstood, see end). If he developed bayes nets without seeking causality, it is easy to imagine armchairians doing the same thing. </p>
<p>In the <a href="http://www.ece.tamu.edu/~bjyoon/ecen689-604-fall10/Pearl_1982.pdf" rel="nofollow">1982 paper about tree bayes nets</a>, Pearl does not mention causality. In <a href="http://ijcai.org/Past%20Proceedings/IJCAI-85-VOL1/PDF/108.pdf" rel="nofollow">1984 or 1985</a>, he says &#8220;This paper takes the position that human obsession with causation is computationally motivated. Causal models are only attractive because they provide effective data-structures for representing empirical knowledge&#8230;&#8221; which seems to be the assertion that armchairians would introduce such models. I don&#8217;t put much stake in an argument from authority: what does he know of armchairians? If he developed the 1982 paper with no thought of causality, I think that is strong evidence. But the lack of mention of causality in the paper is only weak evidence of his thoughts.</p>
<p>In the <a href="http://ftp.cs.ucla.edu/tech-report/198_-reports/850017.pdf" rel="nofollow">1985 paper of full-fledged DAG bayes nets</a>, he is more enthusiastic about causality, but is still nervous about its reality.</p>
<p>Actually, I misremembered the passage that lead me to describe past-Pearl as an armchairian. He does not claim to have ever disbelieved in causality or avoided talking about it (though he does seem to avoid it in the 1982 paper). From the preface of Causality, the passage is: &#8220;Ten years ago [in 1988] I was working in the empiricist position&#8230;[I held] that] causality simply provides useful ways of abbreviating and organizing intricate patterns of probabilistic relationships&#8230;I now take causal relationships to be the fundamental building blocks&#8230;&#8221; He is talking about a later transition. If he could make that transition, maybe armchairians could, but it is pretty weak evidence. But I don&#8217;t think the armchairians need to make that transition to count for Scott&#8217;s purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: ayvlasov</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55463</link>
		<dc:creator>ayvlasov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 12:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55463</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, odds ratio is also symmetric. Maybe something like
P(A OR NOT B) ? Also not quite good. Any other asymmetrical measures?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, odds ratio is also symmetric. Maybe something like<br />
P(A OR NOT B) ? Also not quite good. Any other asymmetrical measures?</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Vassar</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55390</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Vassar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 03:04:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55390</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pearl was inspired by engineering, the non-armchairian faith.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pearl was inspired by engineering, the non-armchairian faith.</p>
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		<title>By: MattF</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55294</link>
		<dc:creator>MattF</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 16:08:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55294</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems to me that simply making inferences of any kind forces the Armcharians to follow a model of cause and effect. You start with some set of axioms, theorems, data, conclusions, and rules of inference. If you observe more data, you apply your axioms, theorems, and rules to produce more conclusions. Voila... cause and effect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that simply making inferences of any kind forces the Armcharians to follow a model of cause and effect. You start with some set of axioms, theorems, data, conclusions, and rules of inference. If you observe more data, you apply your axioms, theorems, and rules to produce more conclusions. Voila&#8230; cause and effect.</p>
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		<title>By: mkatkov</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55234</link>
		<dc:creator>mkatkov</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 09:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55234</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[E #54. If cause is unobservable, but you have two consequences slightly separated in time, the only way to distinguish mere correlation from causation is to perturb (i.e. perform controllable experiment) earlier consequence, and see whether it effects the later one. 

Moreover, the only effect can be derived, for which external world performs experiment for you, and performs it frequently enough to compute statistics. So, it is very hard to imagine what would lead to the prediction of computer design with its operations (given that core of it is from quantum mechanics - band structure of solid state bodies ). It took many controlled experiments based on the results of previous experiments in refining, and cleaning conditions, that it has very small probability of being performed by the nature in natural conditions.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>E #54. If cause is unobservable, but you have two consequences slightly separated in time, the only way to distinguish mere correlation from causation is to perturb (i.e. perform controllable experiment) earlier consequence, and see whether it effects the later one. </p>
<p>Moreover, the only effect can be derived, for which external world performs experiment for you, and performs it frequently enough to compute statistics. So, it is very hard to imagine what would lead to the prediction of computer design with its operations (given that core of it is from quantum mechanics &#8211; band structure of solid state bodies ). It took many controlled experiments based on the results of previous experiments in refining, and cleaning conditions, that it has very small probability of being performed by the nature in natural conditions.</p>
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		<title>By: Zack</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55149</link>
		<dc:creator>Zack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 01:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55149</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The psychology of &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Simpson&#039;s paradox&lt;/a&gt; implies that humans have a basic (whether innate or just learned very early is moot) predilection to analyze events in terms of causality.  Perhaps the Armchairians would see no paradox!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The psychology of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simpson%27s_paradox" rel="nofollow">Simpson&#8217;s paradox</a> implies that humans have a basic (whether innate or just learned very early is moot) predilection to analyze events in terms of causality.  Perhaps the Armchairians would see no paradox!</p>
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		<title>By: Raoul Ohio</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55124</link>
		<dc:creator>Raoul Ohio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 22:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55124</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Continuing John&#039;s comments on Truesdell, his most entertaining work by far is &quot;An Idiot&#039;s Fugitive Essays on Science: Methods, Criticism, Training, Circumstances&quot;.

Check it out.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Continuing John&#8217;s comments on Truesdell, his most entertaining work by far is &#8220;An Idiot&#8217;s Fugitive Essays on Science: Methods, Criticism, Training, Circumstances&#8221;.</p>
<p>Check it out.</p>
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		<title>By: E</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55113</link>
		<dc:creator>E</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 21:19:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55113</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m going to go with option 3:
&#039;It depends entirely on what we mean by &quot;developing the notion of cause and effect&quot;&#039;

One simple way of mathematizing &quot;cause and effect&quot; is to factor a joint distribution in terms of conditional probabilities.

There are some apparently natural mathematical definitions which can allow one to derive unique factorizations of a joint distribution into tables of conditional probabilities.

One example (of many):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_information_criterion

Thus if the Armchairians can do something like the mathematical reasoning we are familiar with, they could reasonably be expected to have the capability of reasoning about something formal that equates pretty well with our notion of cause and effect.  This is no different from our ability to reason about a mathematical model of the universe which lacks cause and effect (presumably mostly not very interesting models to us, but we can nonetheless reason about them).

On the other hand, would an Armcharian venture to make an absolute statement about cause and effect?  In fact, should even those of us capable of interventionist experiments make such a statement?  I would argue no.  It is always possible (although vanishingly improbable), that in a finite numbers of samples of an experiment we have seen a series of outcomes that would lead us to an incorrect conclusion (unless you are assuming a deterministic universe and a sufficiently rich experimental model to capture this determinism).  

The reason interventionist experiments seem the natural gold standard for causation is that they exactly sample from the distribution of interest.  Mathematically: P(outcome &#124; intervention leading to an event A) rather than P(outcome &#124; A).  The former is the distribution of interest precisely because we have the *option* of sampling from it in the future, and depending on the nature of the intervention there can be subtle differences between the two (we rarely have an intervention that we can be confident will produce exactly and only A).  To Armchairians this would likely be of much more theoretical interest, since they do not have a natural reason to care about potential distinctions between A and some intervention leading to A.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to go with option 3:<br />
&#8216;It depends entirely on what we mean by &#8220;developing the notion of cause and effect&#8221;&#8216;</p>
<p>One simple way of mathematizing &#8220;cause and effect&#8221; is to factor a joint distribution in terms of conditional probabilities.</p>
<p>There are some apparently natural mathematical definitions which can allow one to derive unique factorizations of a joint distribution into tables of conditional probabilities.</p>
<p>One example (of many):<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_information_criterion" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_information_criterion</a></p>
<p>Thus if the Armchairians can do something like the mathematical reasoning we are familiar with, they could reasonably be expected to have the capability of reasoning about something formal that equates pretty well with our notion of cause and effect.  This is no different from our ability to reason about a mathematical model of the universe which lacks cause and effect (presumably mostly not very interesting models to us, but we can nonetheless reason about them).</p>
<p>On the other hand, would an Armcharian venture to make an absolute statement about cause and effect?  In fact, should even those of us capable of interventionist experiments make such a statement?  I would argue no.  It is always possible (although vanishingly improbable), that in a finite numbers of samples of an experiment we have seen a series of outcomes that would lead us to an incorrect conclusion (unless you are assuming a deterministic universe and a sufficiently rich experimental model to capture this determinism).  </p>
<p>The reason interventionist experiments seem the natural gold standard for causation is that they exactly sample from the distribution of interest.  Mathematically: P(outcome | intervention leading to an event A) rather than P(outcome | A).  The former is the distribution of interest precisely because we have the *option* of sampling from it in the future, and depending on the nature of the intervention there can be subtle differences between the two (we rarely have an intervention that we can be confident will produce exactly and only A).  To Armchairians this would likely be of much more theoretical interest, since they do not have a natural reason to care about potential distinctions between A and some intervention leading to A.</p>
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		<title>By: Rahul</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55013</link>
		<dc:creator>Rahul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 12:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1156#comment-55013</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It all depends on which kind of complexity theory they would believe in. If they were votaries of average-case analysis, they would be satisfied with correlation; the more pragmatic typical-case types would cherish the notion of causality. As for the worst-case fanatics, the less said the better: they wouldn&#039;t bother with predictions until they prove NP = P.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It all depends on which kind of complexity theory they would believe in. If they were votaries of average-case analysis, they would be satisfied with correlation; the more pragmatic typical-case types would cherish the notion of causality. As for the worst-case fanatics, the less said the better: they wouldn&#8217;t bother with predictions until they prove NP = P.</p>
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