<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: I was wrong about Joy Christian</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?feed=rss2&#038;p=1028" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028</link>
	<description>The Blog of Scott Aaronson</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 05:48:07 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.5.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Elevated Doofus Activity &#171; Pink Iguana</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45342</link>
		<dc:creator>Elevated Doofus Activity &#171; Pink Iguana</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 May 2012 10:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45342</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] I was Wrong about Joy Christian, here. Sometimes the snark has go to eleven.  In response to my post criticizing his “disproof” of [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I was Wrong about Joy Christian, here. Sometimes the snark has go to eleven.  In response to my post criticizing his “disproof” of [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: rrtucci</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45310</link>
		<dc:creator>rrtucci</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 19:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45310</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I never trust people who say institutions cannot change because it was written long ago on stone that this is how it should be, or because rocking the boat might sink it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never trust people who say institutions cannot change because it was written long ago on stone that this is how it should be, or because rocking the boat might sink it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Sidles</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45302</link>
		<dc:creator>John Sidles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 18:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45302</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The arguments of Adrian #133 were cogent (IMHO), those of Scott #134, not so much.  The well-documented tenure struggles of G&#246;del, Noether, Grothendieck, and Witten (to name four) suggest that in practice, tenure evaluations are similarly rigorous to published proofs. That is, in principle the evaluations are rigorous, in practice not so much.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The arguments of Adrian #133 were cogent (IMHO), those of Scott #134, not so much.  The well-documented tenure struggles of G&ouml;del, Noether, Grothendieck, and Witten (to name four) suggest that in practice, tenure evaluations are similarly rigorous to published proofs. That is, in principle the evaluations are rigorous, in practice not so much.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45297</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 18:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45297</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Adrian, you raise some interesting points.  However, everything you say seems to apply to &lt;i&gt;tenured&lt;/i&gt; faculty, for whom there are indeed extremely strong protections, even if they go off the deep end and start publishing crackpot papers in their old age.  I understand the reasons for those protections, even if they&#039;ve led to undeserved job security for truly indefensible scum (like Peter Duesberg, the HIV/AIDS denialist at Berkeley responsible for hundreds of thousands of South African deaths).

However, I was thinking of Joy as the analogue of an &lt;i&gt;untenured&lt;/i&gt; faculty member.  Certainly, any department that would &lt;i&gt;grant&lt;/i&gt; tenure to Joy with his current record would immediately discredit itself.

So maybe the best policy would be for organizations like FQXi to have both &quot;provisional members&quot; and &quot;tenured members,&quot; and in order to move from the former category to the latter, you&#039;d have to demonstrate an ability to produce work that&#039;s original, interesting, and sane.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adrian, you raise some interesting points.  However, everything you say seems to apply to <i>tenured</i> faculty, for whom there are indeed extremely strong protections, even if they go off the deep end and start publishing crackpot papers in their old age.  I understand the reasons for those protections, even if they&#8217;ve led to undeserved job security for truly indefensible scum (like Peter Duesberg, the HIV/AIDS denialist at Berkeley responsible for hundreds of thousands of South African deaths).</p>
<p>However, I was thinking of Joy as the analogue of an <i>untenured</i> faculty member.  Certainly, any department that would <i>grant</i> tenure to Joy with his current record would immediately discredit itself.</p>
<p>So maybe the best policy would be for organizations like FQXi to have both &#8220;provisional members&#8221; and &#8220;tenured members,&#8221; and in order to move from the former category to the latter, you&#8217;d have to demonstrate an ability to produce work that&#8217;s original, interesting, and sane.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Adrian Kent</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45293</link>
		<dc:creator>Adrian Kent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 17:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45293</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;However, let me humbly propose the following small change to their process: if anyone publishes a paper entitled “Disproof of X’s Theorem” (rather than, say, “Loophole in X’s Theorem” or “Questioning the Relevance of X’s Theorem”), that person is out. :-)&quot;

I wonder if you&#039;ve thought the implications through, Scott?  
I haven&#039;t checked their statutes, but I&#039;d be surprised if the National Academy of Sciences or the Royal Society have any procedure for revoking membership because of publishing incorrect papers, however provocatively or trivially wrong.    And while I&#039;m not certain about MIT, I&#039;m pretty sure Cambridge also has no clear procedure for dismissing a tenured faculty member on such grounds.  (If I understand our rules right, sacking any tenured university officer would require, among other things, a vote by the entire university.)  

Of course, the membership selection for FQXi is rather less rigorous, and you can argue it&#039;s a different case.   But all these more venerable institutions seem to manage pretty well, even though a few of their members do indeed sometimes publish junk.   Maybe that&#039;s just (a small) part of the price of academic freedom?    You can -- I would -- argue that FQXi should have a quality filter for the work it publicizes.  But lobbying to exclude people seems to me to be going too far.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;However, let me humbly propose the following small change to their process: if anyone publishes a paper entitled “Disproof of X’s Theorem” (rather than, say, “Loophole in X’s Theorem” or “Questioning the Relevance of X’s Theorem”), that person is out. <img src='http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> &#8221;</p>
<p>I wonder if you&#8217;ve thought the implications through, Scott?<br />
I haven&#8217;t checked their statutes, but I&#8217;d be surprised if the National Academy of Sciences or the Royal Society have any procedure for revoking membership because of publishing incorrect papers, however provocatively or trivially wrong.    And while I&#8217;m not certain about MIT, I&#8217;m pretty sure Cambridge also has no clear procedure for dismissing a tenured faculty member on such grounds.  (If I understand our rules right, sacking any tenured university officer would require, among other things, a vote by the entire university.)  </p>
<p>Of course, the membership selection for FQXi is rather less rigorous, and you can argue it&#8217;s a different case.   But all these more venerable institutions seem to manage pretty well, even though a few of their members do indeed sometimes publish junk.   Maybe that&#8217;s just (a small) part of the price of academic freedom?    You can &#8212; I would &#8212; argue that FQXi should have a quality filter for the work it publicizes.  But lobbying to exclude people seems to me to be going too far.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45250</link>
		<dc:creator>David Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 11:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45250</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Peq Ualsnp #143: &quot;... take ZFC. No experiment will make the axioms more or less plausible.&quot; If an experiment could indicate that the multiverse is finite, then the axioms of ZFC would seem less plausible. If an experiment could indicate that the multiverse is at least countably infinite, then the axioms of ZFC would seem more plausible. If a mathematical model has a totally accurate representation in physical reality, it is hard to argue that the model is logically inconsistent.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Peq Ualsnp #143: &#8220;&#8230; take ZFC. No experiment will make the axioms more or less plausible.&#8221; If an experiment could indicate that the multiverse is finite, then the axioms of ZFC would seem less plausible. If an experiment could indicate that the multiverse is at least countably infinite, then the axioms of ZFC would seem more plausible. If a mathematical model has a totally accurate representation in physical reality, it is hard to argue that the model is logically inconsistent.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: wolfgang</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45228</link>
		<dc:creator>wolfgang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 May 2012 05:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45228</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&gt;&gt; they’re also “rigorously definable mathematically,” right?)

Not really.  The best theory we have about nature is called &quot;standard model&quot; and it is known to be inconsistent at very high energies. (But it works really well at energies we can reach.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt; they’re also “rigorously definable mathematically,” right?)</p>
<p>Not really.  The best theory we have about nature is called &#8220;standard model&#8221; and it is known to be inconsistent at very high energies. (But it works really well at energies we can reach.)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45203</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 22:28:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45203</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peq #129: In principle, you could argue that the concepts of computability theory are &quot;motivated by physics&quot; in the same sense that concepts of complexity theory are.  I.e., one could imagine a world where oracles for the halting problem grew on trees, so that the halting problem&#039;s unsolvability by Turing machines wasn&#039;t particularly relevant.  The point is just that it seems extremely farfetched that our world could be anything like that.  Rather, everything we know is consistent with the conjecture that Church and Turing got it right the first time, i.e., that the Church-Turing Thesis is a very true statement about physics.  When we come to complexity, by contrast, the grounds for believing the &lt;i&gt;Extended&lt;/i&gt; Church-Turing Thesis (which talks about polynomial-time computation) have always been weaker than in the computability case.  And indeed, our current belief is that quantum mechanics actually falsifies the ECT.  (Though one can then revise the ECT to a &lt;i&gt;quantum&lt;/i&gt; ECT, which still stands as far as anyone knows.)

I should confess, what appeals to me personally about complexity theory is precisely that it seems somewhere &quot;between math and physics&quot; on the scale of aprioricity!  I.e., our models of computation aren&#039;t sensitive to the mass of this or that muon, but they &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; sensitive to extremely basic features of the world like whether it&#039;s deterministic or probabilistic, classical or quantum---and that&#039;s exactly how I like it!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peq #129: In principle, you could argue that the concepts of computability theory are &#8220;motivated by physics&#8221; in the same sense that concepts of complexity theory are.  I.e., one could imagine a world where oracles for the halting problem grew on trees, so that the halting problem&#8217;s unsolvability by Turing machines wasn&#8217;t particularly relevant.  The point is just that it seems extremely farfetched that our world could be anything like that.  Rather, everything we know is consistent with the conjecture that Church and Turing got it right the first time, i.e., that the Church-Turing Thesis is a very true statement about physics.  When we come to complexity, by contrast, the grounds for believing the <i>Extended</i> Church-Turing Thesis (which talks about polynomial-time computation) have always been weaker than in the computability case.  And indeed, our current belief is that quantum mechanics actually falsifies the ECT.  (Though one can then revise the ECT to a <i>quantum</i> ECT, which still stands as far as anyone knows.)</p>
<p>I should confess, what appeals to me personally about complexity theory is precisely that it seems somewhere &#8220;between math and physics&#8221; on the scale of aprioricity!  I.e., our models of computation aren&#8217;t sensitive to the mass of this or that muon, but they <i>are</i> sensitive to extremely basic features of the world like whether it&#8217;s deterministic or probabilistic, classical or quantum&#8212;and that&#8217;s exactly how I like it!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peq Ualsnp</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45197</link>
		<dc:creator>Peq Ualsnp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 21:29:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45197</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I hope this isn&#039;t too hasty a response and that it isn&#039;t too naive about physics, but anything could be modeled and then spoken about mathematically.  If you take basic laws of physics as axioms (they&#039;re also &quot;rigorously definable mathematically,&quot; right?) then you could prove theorems within the system and ask questions &quot;purely mathematical in character,&quot; and the work of theoretical physicists would be proving &quot;a priori&quot; theorems and not discovering a posteriori facts about the world.  But I thought complexity was better than that.   :) or, rather, :(  I mean computability theory, certainly is, right?  Or, take ZFC.  No experiment will make the axioms more or less plausible.  The fact that discoveries about quantum mechanics changes the nature of complexity theory says to me that complexity is, in the philosophical taxonomy of things, just another branch of theoretical physics.  It uses extremely simple observations from the world to say what is a hard or an easy problem &lt;i&gt;in this world.&lt;/i&gt;  In other possible worlds with different laws of physics, which problems were hard or easy would be different.   Can&#039;t decide whether this is obvious or doesn&#039;t make sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope this isn&#8217;t too hasty a response and that it isn&#8217;t too naive about physics, but anything could be modeled and then spoken about mathematically.  If you take basic laws of physics as axioms (they&#8217;re also &#8220;rigorously definable mathematically,&#8221; right?) then you could prove theorems within the system and ask questions &#8220;purely mathematical in character,&#8221; and the work of theoretical physicists would be proving &#8220;a priori&#8221; theorems and not discovering a posteriori facts about the world.  But I thought complexity was better than that.   <img src='http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  or, rather, <img src='http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' />   I mean computability theory, certainly is, right?  Or, take ZFC.  No experiment will make the axioms more or less plausible.  The fact that discoveries about quantum mechanics changes the nature of complexity theory says to me that complexity is, in the philosophical taxonomy of things, just another branch of theoretical physics.  It uses extremely simple observations from the world to say what is a hard or an easy problem <i>in this world.</i>  In other possible worlds with different laws of physics, which problems were hard or easy would be different.   Can&#8217;t decide whether this is obvious or doesn&#8217;t make sense.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45193</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 May 2012 20:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1028#comment-45193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Peq Ualsnp&quot;: That&#039;s a big question!

Short answer: the &lt;i&gt;models of computation&lt;/i&gt; that we study in complexity theory (P, BPP, BQP, etc.) are all rigorously-definable mathematically---you can explain any of them to a mathematician who neither knows nor cares about physics.  And the great open problems like P vs. NP, BPP vs. BQP, etc. are purely mathematical in character.

On the other hand, the &lt;i&gt;motivation&lt;/i&gt; for studying these particular models and questions does appeal to facts about physics.  With classical computation, the appeal to physics was implicit: that is, people just assumed that &lt;i&gt;of course&lt;/i&gt; a bit has a definite &quot;0&quot; or &quot;1&quot; value, even if no one measures the bit, and they defined their mathematical models of computation accordingly.  With quantum computation, the appeal to physics is explicit: the whole goal was to define a model of computation that takes quantum mechanics into account.

Now, from a sufficiently advanced perspective, even complexity classes like BQP might well seem motivated &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; to us.  We&#039;d say, &quot;well, &lt;i&gt;of course&lt;/i&gt; quantum mechanics is one of the most basic mathematical possibilities one needs to consider!  that&#039;s &lt;i&gt;obvious&lt;/i&gt;, and would be, even if our universe happened to be classical, and experiments had never shown quantum behavior at all!&quot;

On the other hand, the fact remains that mathematicians &lt;i&gt;didn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; discover quantum mechanics through &lt;i&gt;a priori&lt;/i&gt; reasoning; instead it was forced on the world by the physicists.  So at present, I&#039;d say that BQP is indeed a well-defined mathematical object, but that &lt;i&gt;most&lt;/i&gt; (not all) of the interest in studying this object ultimately traces back to experimental discoveries in physics.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Peq Ualsnp&#8221;: That&#8217;s a big question!</p>
<p>Short answer: the <i>models of computation</i> that we study in complexity theory (P, BPP, BQP, etc.) are all rigorously-definable mathematically&#8212;you can explain any of them to a mathematician who neither knows nor cares about physics.  And the great open problems like P vs. NP, BPP vs. BQP, etc. are purely mathematical in character.</p>
<p>On the other hand, the <i>motivation</i> for studying these particular models and questions does appeal to facts about physics.  With classical computation, the appeal to physics was implicit: that is, people just assumed that <i>of course</i> a bit has a definite &#8220;0&#8243; or &#8220;1&#8243; value, even if no one measures the bit, and they defined their mathematical models of computation accordingly.  With quantum computation, the appeal to physics is explicit: the whole goal was to define a model of computation that takes quantum mechanics into account.</p>
<p>Now, from a sufficiently advanced perspective, even complexity classes like BQP might well seem motivated <i>a priori</i> to us.  We&#8217;d say, &#8220;well, <i>of course</i> quantum mechanics is one of the most basic mathematical possibilities one needs to consider!  that&#8217;s <i>obvious</i>, and would be, even if our universe happened to be classical, and experiments had never shown quantum behavior at all!&#8221;</p>
<p>On the other hand, the fact remains that mathematicians <i>didn&#8217;t</i> discover quantum mechanics through <i>a priori</i> reasoning; instead it was forced on the world by the physicists.  So at present, I&#8217;d say that BQP is indeed a well-defined mathematical object, but that <i>most</i> (not all) of the interest in studying this object ultimately traces back to experimental discoveries in physics.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
