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	<title>Comments for Shtetl-Optimized</title>
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	<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog</link>
	<description>The Blog of Scott Aaronson</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 21:15:42 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76827</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 21:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76827</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Nobody Special #266: Well, the core of the matter is simply that I don&#039;t believe one can extrapolate the numerical simulations from that paper!  All of my experience with similar situations, and everything I know about the workings of the adiabatic algorithm (and its total &quot;ignorance&quot; of the factoring problem), leads me to predict that the curve will bend and become exponential when you get up to larger instances.  I&#039;d put $50,000 on that prediction, except that Dana has forbidden me from making any more such bets. :-D]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody Special #266: Well, the core of the matter is simply that I don&#8217;t believe one can extrapolate the numerical simulations from that paper!  All of my experience with similar situations, and everything I know about the workings of the adiabatic algorithm (and its total &#8220;ignorance&#8221; of the factoring problem), leads me to predict that the curve will bend and become exponential when you get up to larger instances.  I&#8217;d put $50,000 on that prediction, except that Dana has forbidden me from making any more such bets. <img src='http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':-D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by Nobody Special</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76824</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody Special</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 20:58:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Further to the point about factorizing integers adiabatically. This paper here: http://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.1935.pdf shows an algorithm where it appears to scale quadractically (at 1/8 probability of success instead of 2/3 as is accepted for BQP) which might mean it&#039;s in P.  So either because O(log(n)^3) scales better than O(n^2) or because the success probability seems quite low for the adiabatic algorithm and perhaps at 2/3 it would look much worse.  Perhaps we can&#039;t assume that problems solved with a adiabatic device can be solved at the same complexity as a gate model device?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Further to the point about factorizing integers adiabatically. This paper here: <a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.1935.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://arxiv.org/pdf/0808.1935.pdf</a> shows an algorithm where it appears to scale quadractically (at 1/8 probability of success instead of 2/3 as is accepted for BQP) which might mean it&#8217;s in P.  So either because O(log(n)^3) scales better than O(n^2) or because the success probability seems quite low for the adiabatic algorithm and perhaps at 2/3 it would look much worse.  Perhaps we can&#8217;t assume that problems solved with a adiabatic device can be solved at the same complexity as a gate model device?</p>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by Greg Kuperberg</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76821</link>
		<dc:creator>Greg Kuperberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 20:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76821</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Factoring is morally in the intersection of NP and coNP.   I say &quot;morally&quot; because it is not a decision problem.  However, it is in TFNP with a unique solution, so it can easily be decomposed into decision problems in NP intersect coNP.  Therefore there is no way for factoring to be NP-hard unless NP = coNP.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Factoring is morally in the intersection of NP and coNP.   I say &#8220;morally&#8221; because it is not a decision problem.  However, it is in TFNP with a unique solution, so it can easily be decomposed into decision problems in NP intersect coNP.  Therefore there is no way for factoring to be NP-hard unless NP = coNP.</p>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76817</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 20:21:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76817</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anonymous #259:

&lt;ul&gt;Here is a basic question that confuses me: why can’t we reduce factoring to D-Wave problem?&lt;/ul&gt;

We certainly can.  But if we do, then there&#039;s no reason whatsoever to expect any speedup (and even D-Wave might agree about that).

Factoring is in NP, and is believed to be &quot;NP-intermediate.&quot;  In particular, NP-complete problems can&#039;t be reduced to factoring unless NP=coNP, but factoring can certainly be reduced to any NP-complete problem (including D-Wave&#039;s QUBO problem).

The issue is that no one has &lt;i&gt;ever&lt;/i&gt; found reducing factoring to a general NP-complete problem, and then trying to solve the latter, to be a competitive way to factor numbers.  When you do so, you &quot;throw away&quot; all the number-theoretic structure that makes factoring easier than many other search problems!  For example, using the Number Field Sieve, it&#039;s possible to factor an n-bit integer classically in ~2&lt;sup&gt;O(n^1/3)&lt;/sup&gt; steps.  But how is your SAT-solver supposed to know about that?  Likewise, even if the D-Wave machine were capable of running Shor&#039;s algorithm (which it isn&#039;t), if you first reduce factoring to QUBO and then run the adiabatic algorithm on the latter, the algorithm isn&#039;t going to &quot;magically recognize&quot; that the QUBO instance came from factoring and that it can therefore do something much faster.  Instead, it will be stuck doing an exponential brute-force search, and I would be astonished if it were anywhere near competitive with clever classical algorithms like the Number Field Sieve.

On your last question, I&#039;d say that we still don&#039;t understand what the D-Wave machine does, well enough to be able to talk about what complexity class might correspond to it.  The D-Wave machine implements stoquastic Hamiltonians only, and those are believed to &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; give us all of BQP.  If the temperature is too high, you might not even get anything outside of BPP.  But the devices are a moving target: as soon as you figure out the limitations of one machine, D-Wave announces that maybe nothing you say is relevant to their &lt;i&gt;next&lt;/i&gt; machine.  So for the time being, the relevant question is just whether you can get any empirical speedup over classical computers in a fair comparison---not what complexity class their machine corresponds to.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous #259:</p>
<ul>Here is a basic question that confuses me: why can’t we reduce factoring to D-Wave problem?</ul>
<p>We certainly can.  But if we do, then there&#8217;s no reason whatsoever to expect any speedup (and even D-Wave might agree about that).</p>
<p>Factoring is in NP, and is believed to be &#8220;NP-intermediate.&#8221;  In particular, NP-complete problems can&#8217;t be reduced to factoring unless NP=coNP, but factoring can certainly be reduced to any NP-complete problem (including D-Wave&#8217;s QUBO problem).</p>
<p>The issue is that no one has <i>ever</i> found reducing factoring to a general NP-complete problem, and then trying to solve the latter, to be a competitive way to factor numbers.  When you do so, you &#8220;throw away&#8221; all the number-theoretic structure that makes factoring easier than many other search problems!  For example, using the Number Field Sieve, it&#8217;s possible to factor an n-bit integer classically in ~2<sup>O(n^1/3)</sup> steps.  But how is your SAT-solver supposed to know about that?  Likewise, even if the D-Wave machine were capable of running Shor&#8217;s algorithm (which it isn&#8217;t), if you first reduce factoring to QUBO and then run the adiabatic algorithm on the latter, the algorithm isn&#8217;t going to &#8220;magically recognize&#8221; that the QUBO instance came from factoring and that it can therefore do something much faster.  Instead, it will be stuck doing an exponential brute-force search, and I would be astonished if it were anywhere near competitive with clever classical algorithms like the Number Field Sieve.</p>
<p>On your last question, I&#8217;d say that we still don&#8217;t understand what the D-Wave machine does, well enough to be able to talk about what complexity class might correspond to it.  The D-Wave machine implements stoquastic Hamiltonians only, and those are believed to <i>not</i> give us all of BQP.  If the temperature is too high, you might not even get anything outside of BPP.  But the devices are a moving target: as soon as you figure out the limitations of one machine, D-Wave announces that maybe nothing you say is relevant to their <i>next</i> machine.  So for the time being, the relevant question is just whether you can get any empirical speedup over classical computers in a fair comparison&#8212;not what complexity class their machine corresponds to.</p>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76813</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 20:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76813</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John Sidles #258: If there was a &quot;quantum&quot; device that got an enormous constant-factor speedup over all existing &quot;classical&quot; devices, &lt;i&gt;but&lt;/i&gt; there wasn&#039;t any plausible path to getting a &lt;i&gt;super-&lt;/i&gt;constant speedup over existing computers, then I personally would be inclined to call the device an exciting new form of classical computing, rather than quantum computing.  My argument boils down, once again, to the fact that transistors &lt;i&gt;already&lt;/i&gt; heavily depend on quantum mechanics, but we don&#039;t call our existing computers &quot;quantum computers&quot; as a result.  So the hypothetical device we&#039;re talking about could be seen as &quot;just(!) a super-transistor.&quot;  I prefer the term &quot;quantum computing&quot; to retain its currently-understood meaning; if we want to discuss possibilities like that &quot;quantum super-transistor&quot; then we should invent different terms for them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John Sidles #258: If there was a &#8220;quantum&#8221; device that got an enormous constant-factor speedup over all existing &#8220;classical&#8221; devices, <i>but</i> there wasn&#8217;t any plausible path to getting a <i>super-</i>constant speedup over existing computers, then I personally would be inclined to call the device an exciting new form of classical computing, rather than quantum computing.  My argument boils down, once again, to the fact that transistors <i>already</i> heavily depend on quantum mechanics, but we don&#8217;t call our existing computers &#8220;quantum computers&#8221; as a result.  So the hypothetical device we&#8217;re talking about could be seen as &#8220;just(!) a super-transistor.&#8221;  I prefer the term &#8220;quantum computing&#8221; to retain its currently-understood meaning; if we want to discuss possibilities like that &#8220;quantum super-transistor&#8221; then we should invent different terms for them.</p>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by Nobody Special</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76794</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody Special</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 18:36:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76794</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anonymous #258.  I believe if integer factorization was a DWave problem then it would mean that NP = co-NP which while not as mind-curdling as P = NP it goes against expectations.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous #258.  I believe if integer factorization was a DWave problem then it would mean that NP = co-NP which while not as mind-curdling as P = NP it goes against expectations.</p>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by Nobody Special</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76791</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody Special</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 18:29:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks Scott #257 (and happy birthday #32!).  Yes, I am completely with you, D-Wave&#039;s device as it stands seems to be inferior to not just classical machines but classical machines which are several orders of magnitude cheaper (I have comparable computing power used in that paper in my garage).  I think what I was getting at though was that other problems commonly associated with Quantum Computing are not necessarily solved *EVEN* if DWave is somehow successful. i.e. Integer factorization is not, known to be in NP-Complete.  So DWave&#039;s current machine couldn&#039;t be adapted to factor integers with the same hypothetical speedup.  So I would assume then that some other Hamiltonian would have to be used?  In which case is there any guarantee that a Hamiltonian for solving integer factorization would be equal to or better than running Shor&#039;s on a gate model machine? (Aside: I sometimes find it useful  when attempting to get through the layers of misconceptions that people have about QC is to point out that there are already known cases - such as factoring small integers - where classical machines outperform QC).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Scott #257 (and happy birthday #32!).  Yes, I am completely with you, D-Wave&#8217;s device as it stands seems to be inferior to not just classical machines but classical machines which are several orders of magnitude cheaper (I have comparable computing power used in that paper in my garage).  I think what I was getting at though was that other problems commonly associated with Quantum Computing are not necessarily solved *EVEN* if DWave is somehow successful. i.e. Integer factorization is not, known to be in NP-Complete.  So DWave&#8217;s current machine couldn&#8217;t be adapted to factor integers with the same hypothetical speedup.  So I would assume then that some other Hamiltonian would have to be used?  In which case is there any guarantee that a Hamiltonian for solving integer factorization would be equal to or better than running Shor&#8217;s on a gate model machine? (Aside: I sometimes find it useful  when attempting to get through the layers of misconceptions that people have about QC is to point out that there are already known cases &#8211; such as factoring small integers &#8211; where classical machines outperform QC).</p>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76790</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 18:29:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76790</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Happy Birthday. Hope you have a good one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Happy Birthday. Hope you have a good one.</p>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76788</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 18:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76788</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here is a basic question that confuses me: why can&#039;t we reduce factoring to D-Wave problem? Is it because there is no known efficient  reduction from factoring to it? I.e. is the decision version of their problem a possible NPI problem? If yes, it seems from the interest from Google and others that the class of problems efficiently reducible to it should be quite interesting theoretically. How does it compare to other known classes? Is my understanding correct that it seems to be inside BQP intersect NP and contains P and D-Wave&#039;s opinion is that it is not contained in BPP?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here is a basic question that confuses me: why can&#8217;t we reduce factoring to D-Wave problem? Is it because there is no known efficient  reduction from factoring to it? I.e. is the decision version of their problem a possible NPI problem? If yes, it seems from the interest from Google and others that the class of problems efficiently reducible to it should be quite interesting theoretically. How does it compare to other known classes? Is my understanding correct that it seems to be inside BQP intersect NP and contains P and D-Wave&#8217;s opinion is that it is not contained in BPP?</p>
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		<title>Comment on D-Wave: Truth finally starts to emerge by John Sidles</title>
		<link>http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76784</link>
		<dc:creator>John Sidles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 17:51:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=1400#comment-76784</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;b&gt;Scott&lt;/b&gt; stipulates&#160; &quot;For me personally, the central question is whether or not I can at least see a &lt;i&gt;“straight path forward”&lt;/i&gt; to getting an asymptotic [what does this word mean?] speedup over any possible classical algorithm, under mathematical conjectures that I believe, and assuming quantum mechanics continues to be valid.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;Because different STEM cultures assign very different technical meanings to the term &lt;i&gt;&quot;asymptotic&quot;&lt;/i&gt;, this &quot;central question&quot; remains meaningless until further definitions are given. 

&lt;b&gt;A Test Question&lt;/b&gt;&#160;  Today&#039;s VLSI processors are 10^8++ times faster than the mechanical processors of Babbage and Turing, and they access 10^12++ times more memory.  Shall we say that their net computational capacity is  &lt;i&gt;asymptotically&lt;/i&gt; the same?

&lt;b&gt;Conclusion&lt;/b&gt;&#160; Definitions of &lt;i&gt;asymptotic&lt;/i&gt; computational capacity that conflate 19th century mechanical computers with 20th century electronic computaters are well-posed in a strictly mathematical sense (of course), and yet these same definitions have only marginal practical utility in scientific and engineering discussions&#160;&#8230; and in public discussions, insistence upon strict mathematical definitions can be grossly misleading.  

For similar reasons, mathematical definitions that serve to strictly conflate VLSI computational performance with D-Wave computational performance have only marginal practical utility and in public discussions can be grossly misleading.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><b>Scott</b> stipulates&nbsp; &#8220;For me personally, the central question is whether or not I can at least see a <i>“straight path forward”</i> to getting an asymptotic [what does this word mean?] speedup over any possible classical algorithm, under mathematical conjectures that I believe, and assuming quantum mechanics continues to be valid.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Because different STEM cultures assign very different technical meanings to the term <i>&#8220;asymptotic&#8221;</i>, this &#8220;central question&#8221; remains meaningless until further definitions are given. </p>
<p><b>A Test Question</b>&nbsp;  Today&#8217;s VLSI processors are 10^8++ times faster than the mechanical processors of Babbage and Turing, and they access 10^12++ times more memory.  Shall we say that their net computational capacity is  <i>asymptotically</i> the same?</p>
<p><b>Conclusion</b>&nbsp; Definitions of <i>asymptotic</i> computational capacity that conflate 19th century mechanical computers with 20th century electronic computaters are well-posed in a strictly mathematical sense (of course), and yet these same definitions have only marginal practical utility in scientific and engineering discussions&nbsp;&hellip; and in public discussions, insistence upon strict mathematical definitions can be grossly misleading.  </p>
<p>For similar reasons, mathematical definitions that serve to strictly conflate VLSI computational performance with D-Wave computational performance have only marginal practical utility and in public discussions can be grossly misleading.</p>
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